MORE--Tony Campolo

Wes at Living in the Kingdom has a great link to more info on the previous topic--you can LISTEN to it HERE.

Gender, Homosexuality, Celibacy--Confusion!!!

In the first six weeks of gestation the fetus has undifferentiated gonadal tissue with primordial structures that have the potential to develop into either male or female genitalia, the report said. What does develop is determined by later genetic and hormonal influences as the fetus grows.

Note: I clarified where I was going with the bottom portion of this post since I first posted it. I think that there are two different, but related, issues here and I felt the need to clear up where I was trying to go. So if you've already commented you might want to re-read the bottom two paragraphs.

Many people are not MALE or FEMALE--in other words, if I can be blunt: The doctor says, "I'm sorry, we don't know if it's a boy or a girl". If homosexuality is a sin then if a person does not have a definite sex, what are they supposed to do? The whole thing makes my head spin!!!!

I’ve had this post in draft from for quite a few months now and have been meaning to address this issue for a long time, but quite frankly, I have been chicken—bock, bock, bock! There are just certain issues that bring out the meanness in people and are very debate oriented. EU is a great place to discuss these things. Alice brought the issue up a while back on her site so I thought that we would dig it back up.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to take a view either way. I myself am still trying to figure it out and I am not sure that we can OR that we need to. Therefore, I am going to refrain from giving too many of my personal thoughts. Frankly I have some opinions that may be considered liberal and some that may be considered conservative, but as Doug would say, “I DON’T KNOW”. Did God even mean us to know?

In a great book I read, there was a story about a person who was born with deformed gentiles—he or she was not a he or she, but she or he, identified more as a man. I was completely touched by the story and since then I have been wrestling with what God might have intended for these people. Then that leads into another subject: What truly is God’s intention for homosexuals and why? These things have always bothered me but I went along with the conservative view on them for many years and never really questioned it, but if God made us—all of us—and even in the Bible there are people such as this, then what should they do?

Recently I watched Oprah’s show on Identical Twins, When One Twin Changes Gender. If you have not seen it, you might want to check it out. It is very informative and, as Oprah does, she asks a lot of questions, mainly “why”, in order to help us all begin to understand this. Her questions and answers brought more confirmation to me on what I had already been learning, thinking, and asking God.

Another person she interviewed was born a man but always felt that he was a woman. Eventually, later in life, he began the sex change process. Now he is almost a complete woman. So Oprah asks “her now” what gender “she” was now attracted to. Her answer, “Women”. You should’ve seen Oprah’s face—utter confusion! I think that her face represents the feelings of many, including myself—it is so confusing! My initial thought here is that this “originally” man was conditioned all of his life to be attracted to women. He dated women and never felt an attraction to a man. However, he felt as though he was a woman, so he became one.

So this brings up another issue: Are these people gay or do they just have to discover their sex based on their feelings? Should they be celibate? It then flows into another HUGE issue: Are those who are gay born that way or is it a product of environment? I know that this is a BIG issue so maybe we will do another post on this. Anybody up for it?

So in my quest to know more and to understand, I began some research on the Internet. I ran across THIS SITE and a GREAT DEBATE going on about that issue. There are letters from two gay men with two different views. Justin is gay and supports same-sex marriages, and Ron, who is gay, believes that gays should live a life of celibacy. There is a lot to read here on both sides of the issue, but I would ask you to check out as much as you can before you share your thoughts with us here.

Certainty

Certainty - These nine letters are, in my opinion, what separate many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians from those of us who are looking for a different way. It is because these nine letters claim to provide something that the Word of God does not provide as often as we would like to think. In fact, the more I have studied scripture the more I am convinced that this different way must include A Theology of I Don't Know.

Let me begin by telling you a little of my story. I was raised in a thoroughly evangelical church, but I made no decision to follow Jesus until February of 1996. In April of 1996, God and I started talking (arguing) about me attending seminary. After losing this argument with God, I began seminary in the summer of 1998. I went to what would be considered a conservative seminary by anybody's standards, but I was introduced to two professors who would change my life. These two men introduced me to a conversation that I am still part of today. This is the conversation about the emerging church. These two men introduced me to authors like Brian McLaren and Leonard Sweet. One of the first things I noticed is that these two professors and these two authors did not claim to have all of the answers. They all agree we are fellow seekers. They all allow for God to continue to be a God of truth and mystery at the same time. The more I read and prayed, the more I realized how little we finite humans can actually know. This led me to begin developing a theology I tentatively call A Theology of I Don't Know.

Before you off and start calling me a heretic (I could consider this a compliment depending upon who is saying it), let me give you some scriptural support for my position. Corinthians 13:9-12 says:

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I believe God is clearly telling us that we do not have the ability to understand everything about him until Jesus returns. Now I am not one to throw things out there without showing how it affects us in real life. So let me begin by questioning one of the major tenants of faith help by the vast majority of Christians throughout the world.

I believe the evangelical and fundamentalist churches have put too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity. In fact, I don't believe this belief really matters much at all and I don't believe the Bible provides unequivocal support for this doctrine. Typically two arguments are made to support the doctrine of the trinity:

1. God is clearly presented as Father in parts of the Bible, Holy Spirit in other parts and the Son throughout much of the New Testament.
2. Matthew 3:16-17 clearly show God present in all three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore the trinity must be true.

Those that do not believe in the trinity would answer these by saying God has three separate expressions of himself - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These expressions do not equate to separate persons. They might also respond that Matthew 3:16-17 is simply God showing up as all three expressions at once. They would also point out that if you truly believe God to be all powerful than you cannot argue he could not express himself as all three at once.

It becomes easier to see that maybe, just maybe, we don't have all the answers when it comes to whether God is three in one or simply one.

At this point, you might be thinking that this is still a little too theological. You might be thinking it needs to be more practical. I would agree, so let's consider how this affects our politics.

In the United States being an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian has become synonymous with being a Republican. I have heard people go as far as to say that God must favor the Republican Party because of its stance on the issue of abortion. These kinds of statements would actually be very funny if the people saying them were not so serious, but they are very serious. Now let me be the last person to tell you that God is a Democrat. How do you think God stands on the following issues?

1. Tax cuts? Tax increases?
2. Social Security? Social Security reform?
3. Government anti-poverty programs?
4. Public education? Government support for private education?
5. Ethanol?
6. Oil?
7. Tobacco subsidies?

You might have your beliefs on some of these issues, but do you think you know God's stance. I sure don't. Yet, one political party has become God's Only Party or GOP. I would like to tell you that maybe God just doesn't care that much about some of these issues, but the truth is I Don't Know.

By now you might think I am a heretic (see earlier comment), but if you read this right you will notice that I never said if I believed in the trinity or not. I never said if I vote Democrat or Republican or how I believe on any of these issues. I didn't because it is not about what I believe, it is about what God believes and I have to say, I Don't Know.

I may not be certain about some things, but I am certain I would appreciate your comments and feedback.

Salvation

We've discussed Condemnation at length in an earlier post here. But what about the reciprocal issue of Salvation? The topic of "who will be saved" or even what is meant by "saved" among fellow Christians generates a myriad of responses, even within people of the same denomination.

On one side of the issue, extreme conservatives and orthodox Christians assert Salvation is only through spiritual means (NOT BY WORKS), and is granted only to a relatively small number of people (and exactly who "gets into heaven" can be based on a wide variety of beliefs in the relative importance of certain behaviors, admissions of faith, baptism, and many other things).

Are we "saved" if we merely confess Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, and yet go on sinning?
Are we "saved" if we do this, but make an earnest effort to change our wickedness, but periodically slip back into old habits?
Are we "saved" if and only if we sin no more? (in which case, heaven is emptier than a West Texas library)
Are we "saved" by faith alone? Or by works alone? Or a combination of the two?
Are we "saved" though baptism? What if we refuse baptism, but believe in Jesus -- does this matter?
Are we "saved" regardless of what we do?
Are there levels of salvation?
Are we rewarded for our works in heaven?
Are we allowed into heaven, but punished for our sins nonetheless (somehow)?


The belief that we are "saved" and can look forward to an after-life is one of the assurances that Christians hold in the highest regard. It's also a point of criticism from agnostics who claim that Christians design their faith to ease their fear of death, and nothing can be more compelling than joining a belief in something that alleviates the single greatest fear of all humanity: That we're here for a short time, and then gone forever. But for now, let us assume we are open-minded and not cynical to start with. We are seeking a truth and trying to "get there."

Here is a brief summary of some of the beliefs about Christian salvation that I have found:

	Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christian denominations generally teach that only that small minority of individuals who trust Jesus as Lord and savior will be saved. They are justified through faith. (i.e. they are "brought into right standing and into a right relationship with" God. 1 Thus, a person's actions, works and deeds have no impact on their salvation. However, once they are saved, the will exhibit their new status in the good deeds that they do, because they have become a "new creation in Christ." Salvation forms a major part of their faith -- it motivates many believers to save as many other people as possible from the horrors of Hell. A group of leading Fundamentalist / Evangelical leaders, including Jerry Falwell, D. James Kennedy, Pat Robertson, and Charles Stanley, signed a joint statement in 1999-JUN which confirmed their beliefs that: Jesus Christ "is the only way of salvation." "The Bible offers no hope that sincere worshipers of other religions will be saved without personal faith in Jesus Christ." The Bible is inerrant and infallible -- without error. 2 The Southern Baptist Convention altered their internal statement of faith, called the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000-JUN to read that "there is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord."
	Roman Catholicism teaches that infants are "justified" when they are baptized into the Roman Catholic Church. Later, when they mature to the point where they are accountable for their actions, they lose their justification whenever they commit a mortal sin. Church sacraments can restore their status so that they are once more justified. Thus, a person's actions and regular presence during the sacraments are of paramount importance in determining whether they will make it to heaven. Historically, the Church had taught that everyone who is not a Roman Catholic cannot be saved; all will go to Hell when they die. A series of Church documents during and since the Vatican Council II in the mid 1960's were written. They recognize that people who are Eastern Orthodox have the same opportunity for salvation as do Roman Catholics. Christians from other denominations, or are followers of other religions have a chance to be saved. However, they are generally at a severe disadvantage compared to Roman Catholics. More details.
	Liberal Christians generally reject the idea of Hell as a place of eternal punishment. They feel that it is incompatible with a loving, caring, tolerant, rational, understanding, and just God. Some interpret Hell symbolically. Thus, they consider the topic of salvation to be relatively unimportant. Those liberals who believe in the existence of heaven expect that everyone will eventually go there after death.
	Mainline Christian denominations teach beliefs that correspond with those of Evangelical Christianity, or liberal Christianity, or which lie somewhere between these two extremes. Individual members do not necessarily agree with the stated position of their denomination.

Now, rather than get into a discussion about who is going to Hell, can we discuss who is getting into Heaven, and why? This may seem like the same discussion, but I also think it brings another dimension to play, and one that needs more discussion. God wants for all to be saved, just as God loves all humanity. God "hates the sin but loves the sinner," and that's all of us.

Is there any reason to assume that salvation is not for all humankind? Is there any reason to say that Jesus' death on the cross did not save all humanity? This sometimes infuriates fundamentalist Christians, because they raise the issue, "then what did Jesus die for?" In answer to that, the preterist would say that Jesus had died for our sins, and for our salvation, but that He has already returned (around 70AD, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem) during the lifetime of the disciples, which was clearly expected by the New Testament authors (MT 24).

Usually, the liberal Christian view that "all are saved" (same as "nobody goes to hell" or "hell does not exist and is symbolic") is practically considered heretical by conservative Christians. Though, there are biblical passages that do uphold this view.

Current beliefs among the American public about salvation:

The Princeton Religion Research Center (PRRC) ₂ estimates that 6 in 10 Americans " completely agree that the only assurance of eternal life is a personal faith in Jesus Christ. Since the PRRC estimates that 8 out of 10 Americans regard themselves as Christians, then about 75% of Christian adults hold some doubt about inclusivism.

According to the Barna Research Group, among adult Americans:

	86% believe that "eventually all people will be judged by God."
	57% believe that good people will go to Heaven
	39% believe that those who do not accept Christ as savior will go to Hell
	46% agree and 47% disagree that all good people will go to Heaven. 3

There appears to be some shifting of opinion among conservative Christians. The 1996 Year in Review by the Zondervan News Service quoted Ron Nash, author of "Is Jesus the Only Savior?":

"1996 helped reveal serious theological differences among America's 50 million evangelicals...In the issue of salvation, a growing number of evangelicals are embracing a position known as inclusivism which teaches that while the redemptive work of Jesus may be necessary for salvation, it is not necessary for people to know about Jesus or the gospel to receive the benefits of that salvation. It seems clear that 1997 will see this dispute to become even more divisive."

Salvation is either for only a few, or for the many (or all) of humankind. If I consider myself an "inclusivist" it in no way undermines my faith in God, or my belief in the astounding sacrifice Jesus made on my behalf. But I do have a problem with fundamentalists telling me this view is non-biblical or flawed. It would seem to me that the Bible affords many different readings, but it cannot be taken wholly as literal, any more than it can be taken wholly symbolic.

And who are we to put God in a box anyway? Is it fair for Christians to condemn others as hell bound? Is there a need to convert Catholics to Protestants, or Budhists to Christians, or agnostics to fundamentalists? Or should the emphasis, rather than "getting into heaven" be on how we manage our relationships while we are here on Earth?

What kind of Christian are you? Do you consider yourself "saved"? Why? Based on your baptism? Based on a profession of faith? Based on keeping the commandments? Based on your acts of loving kindness toward others?

The wish to be "saved" is the engine that drives many churches. It is the fuel that propels many Christians to be both very good people, and sometimes very "bad" people, depending on your point of view.

What is your view of Salvation?

Does God Love the World?

If God created all things, then God created evil too, as well as sickness, poverty, and all the things we consider bad in our world. If not, then God would not be omnipotent, but just would be the one who "set things into motion, and let the bad things happen without interfering."

One of the hardest things for the non-Christian to grasp is this concept that God, who is supposed to BE love, allows such bad things to happen in the world, and yet has the power to easily stop them.

If you were in total power over an object of your love, say a pet turtle, for example, and you saw him shell-flipped upside down baking in the sun, you would help him, wouldn't you? Why doesn't God just fix all the suffering?

Why does God let bad things happen in the world? Did all the victims of the tsunami deserve their fates? Is God punishing bad people by allowing harm to come to them? If God cannot be persuaded to fight off evil and wrongdoing, then why bother praying for it, or even caring at all about other people?

I'd like the audience (if they're still around) to chime in with thoughts and perspectives of how can a good God allow such rottenness in the world, and how is this to give us hope?